union style

Unions are anti-capitalist, and most tech workers are pro-capitalist. When you bring a union in your competition with your merit worth disappears and is replaced by length of time at the job. No one I know likes that.

Actually, I think everyone I've met in development at least HATES unions. They go to trade shows and are told they can't plug in a power strip because that's the union guy's job. They see union guys walk off the job site at 11:30 exactly because it's a lunch break. Contrast that with tech workers who work 80 hours a week to get a project out the door. They may whine about it while it's going on, but you know they feel pride when it produces and they get a raise out of it.

As for the benefits of unions, what do they do when a company starts shafting its workers? They go on strike. What do tech workers do? They quit and startup their own company.

And to finish off my rant (I'm going to have to go listen to the Dropkick Murphy's now to make up for all my bad union karma. hehe :)), tech workers are too in demand to need a union. A corporation can't dick em' over too badly, because people with our skills can just up and leave. I know I've had multiple "Come join us!" requests from friends and ex-coworkers without any sort of prompting on my part.

That's the beauty of our profession though, we don't need a union because the problems they solve are self correcting for us.

Thoughts?

While I agree that the tech-savvy are opposed to unions, because "intellect" workers can take their "intellect" elsewhere, rather than languish with an opressive company.

The Devil's Advocate offers the programmers at Electronic Arts: they were feeling oppressed, and yet they didn't seem to think they had an option. Granted there was a tech-slump at the time, but still, they though it was better to stick it out and try and litigate their way out, rather than walk out.

Discuss?

if i were to distill your point, i would say that the infrastructure and start-up cost of doing software development was extremely low.

since no major investment in infrastructure is required, moving around is actually extremely easy. i think other people talk about the scale of software development (vs traditional large scale manufacturing). i think that has a lot to do with it to.

overall, good points indeed.

There is, actually a 'technical' union... I started researching it back when NPR first started talking about the AFL/CIO convention-thingy that's happening right now.

It's a variant of the CWA (communication workers of america) which unionises the telephone companies' employees. You know.. Linemen, Operators and the guys who make the Phone Books. The Burque CWA used to strike at the USWest phonebook office on a regular basis, which is how I know they do PhoneBook editors.

Unfortunately, I'm opposed to the 'traditional' union, as I'm a free-market capitalist who thinks that if you're only cut out to be a manufacturer, you go where the manufacturing is. If the plant moves, you move with it.

But then again, that's the kind of free-wheeling capitalisim that firmly believes in competitive advantage, free trade and open borders. How my socialistic views of healthcare fit into this, I'm not really sure, but I do know that the Unions of the 1940s to the present DON'T fit into my picture.

I had the opportunity to join the Teacher's Aide's Union when I had my job at the school and I vehemently opted out, because in 15 years, the Teachers' Unions in this town hadn't managed to do anything positive, except take dues out of an already pitifully-low salary. Unions that merely prey upon the unionised, I can't get behind that.

Ok.. um.. that's more proof that my browser is set up wrong. That post was me. I was logged in when I started, when I submitted, it didn't know who I was.

Yay! Reinstall!

Haha, that's pretty funny that you're a free market capitalist with a hammer and sickle logo.

As for CWA, I thought that was Concerned Women for America! hehehe.

Some views from Silicon Valley...

These are just impressions, but I think the majority of techorati don't like unions for the same reasons they like the "total freedom" ideas of Libertarianism. Geeks think we're smarter than everyone else. Therefore we can do better at representing ourselves than any collective bargaining arrangement. The same holds with the caveat emptor of Libertarians, we're think we're smarter so we don't need pesky safety laws to protect us from shady food vendors. Since everyone we know is super smart, that must mean the market would sort itself out and punish the shady food vendor. Note: I'm not bashing Libertarianism, I just think the reason geeks are attracted to it is because of inflated ego.

Now, a comment about seeing union workers "come in at 8am, take a lunch at noon, leave at 5pm". True, the time is very structured. But, it has been my experience that while they're working they bust some serious ass. No kidding. The "you can't plug that or I'll break your kneecaps" story is cute. But, think of it from a tech-support point of view. If only union workers touch power and they all do it "right" and something goes wrong, there are probably quite a few possible problems you don't have to think about (like some tech geek's too-thin extension cords).

In a related story, I worked construction for a few months. We all got there at the same time, took breaks and lunch at the same time, and left at precisely the same time. While we were on, there was no fucking around. There was enormous pride at every level, the foreman would modify the plans slightly to save some material and time while making sure it was functionally equivalent. I got some bathrooms framed in early because the plumber on site (from a whole different company) would have an easier job if we could get it done early. He was very thankful, we were proud. I was a rookie, so I didn't do anything complicated, but the culture there was "if you fuck it up and can't fix it, tell someone right away. Don't make them fix it, ask them to help you do it or tell you how to do it. Do it right the first time, don't make more work for anyone else, especially other contractors. Finish early." (these are great phrases for a development team) There was very little patience for lazy/not bright" people. If you had to be told to how to do something more than a couple of times, you started getting put on tasks simply to keep you out of the way. That was it, pretty much forever until you went to a new crew.

Re: Some views from Silicon Valley...

I think when you get into locations where there is severe nepotism in the unions, the system breaks down (union janitors at Sandia Labs for example, do not share the same views on work ethic that you just described).

Re: Some views from Silicon Valley...

We're you in a union when you worked construction? I don't have any direct experience with construction work, but I think my wife's entire family runs the gambit of the construction biz. They're either contractors, laborers, electricians, plumbers, tilers, you name it. For some reason I had an impression they were not in unions (nor big fans of them). They tend to be more along the independent skilled labor side. Like a tech contract worker who builds real things instead of pretend internet things.

You make a good point on the power cable plugin thing though. Tech workers tend to want to do everything themselves, and sometimes they know just enough to break stuff, but not fix it. :)

Re: Some views from Silicon Valley...

the ego bit is a very astute observation. i think there is plenty of evidence to support the notion that we think we know better than anyone else.

if i were my enemies, i would try to exploit that.

so now i have two explanations, ego, and lack of economies of scale.

I think unions are kind of strange, and often don't work for traditional employees of minimum wage jobs, so I don't think they'd work in a field where people are traditionally well paid. I'd say more, but I don't feel like it. Maybe later.

one of the things that got me thinking on this subject was wondering just what well paid meant.

i was particularly wondering whether people stayed in the (software) tech field very long. like as a 20+ year career. that makes me try to count and guess the ages of people at my office. then i see something shiny and start to think of other things.

but basically, i wonder if there are a lot of young people in software because it is new, or because they burn out. :(

I am usually very satisfied with whatever someone is willing to pay me to do work. I have been known to have 2-4 jobs at a time at any given moment since I was 13. To me well paid equals paid enough to pay all my bills and still have cable tv. I know that there are a lot of older ready to retire people in my biz, so that's kinda good for me I suppose. Also it seems like all the young people involved are women, which is way cool. My friend Katie and I were at the Stanford Geothermal Workshop a couple of years ago and we were by far the youngest people there.

Sorry, I was supposed to stop, but I re-read your post and saw this comment:

"i'm feeling my lack of knowledge concerning the history of organized labor"

I will try to find my poly sci notes because in that class we watched video of two different labor movements and how one was successful and one was not. One was the grapes, migrant workers, and Cesar Chavez and the other was the steel industry in PA. Can you guess which one was successful ;) Anyways, we had some text to go along with this section about labor movements and unions, so let me see if I can dig it up so I can recommend it.

My experience with unions is like my experience with any large organization. They often do things that work and they often do things that are horrible. Unions have given a lot to the working communities of this country. I am a huge fan of what the IWW accomplished here in AZ during the first half of the century. That said, I think once any organization gets past the grass-roots stage and into the full-fledged ginormous system stage a lot of what was good disappears. I used to sell and deliver produce in St. Louis for about a year (the union capital of the midwest) and I worked for a small, independent, 4 man operation (we obviously weren't unionized). Anytime I delivered to large warehouses, particularly to grocery store warehouses, that were unionized I always got the worst service. They knew I wasn't union and would say, "hey non-union guy, you can wait to be unloaded until after the break". I don't think the story from Craig was just a cute anecdote, I think it is a reality. These guys were some of the laziest workers I have ever seen. I had one saturday where I dropped off at a warehouse that was unionized by teamsters and I got there just before a break, a 30 minute break, then waited about an hour and a half while they stood around and stared at their navels, and then took an hour lunch. A drop off that could have taken 15 minutes, since I was the only delivery, ended up taking about 4 hours. Every minute I had to wait chewed into the money our company could make too. Again though it was a large warehouse and a massive union. Anything that large can't be effective. Your recommended read on "systemantics" elucidates that point quite effectively. So, some organization might be effective for tech workers, but a full-fledged union really isn't going to help anyone, imho.

Amen, brother?

I got in a "fight" with (I think) spoot14 a while back on this blog and we both ended up ralling against big organizations. Beyond a certain size, the organizations primary concern becomes survival of the organization no matter what.

I hope i wasn't the only one who had to look this up Mr. College Grad Student guy. :)

elucidate
Function: verb
Etymology: Late Latin elucidatus, past participle of elucidare, from Latin e- + lucidus lucid
transitive senses : to make lucid especially by explanation or analysis
intransitive senses : to give a clarifying explanation

the title of this post "union style" is a slang term we use at work.

since we are all desk jockies, when something needs to be moved, we get *way* too many volunteers. so we all form a line and hand the thing from one person to the next. what would take one person we do with like 5 or 6.

so we call it union style!

different kinds of tech

i think that most of you guys (which are programmers and something related) forget that there are different kinds of high tech jobs out there and that there are many places where unions would be receptive.

i used to work for the doe and the mentality there is almost unionized. they completely have an "us against them" attitude among all the different classes of job (techs, engineers, scientists, management)

i think academia is similar. there's so much politics involved in educating people that almost everyone is involved in their own little union of one.

unions may be unorganized in the tech world, but i don't think that they are nonexistent. most engineers just haven't figured out how to put their whiny attitudes to work for them yet

Re: different kinds of tech

i was reaching for this kind of comment with "am i overestimating how big the technical field is."

rereading my post, i was *really* reaching. i think you make an excellent point.

What is your record for number of comments?
Ha! 31! Here it is!

i'm pretty sure this story wins. i don't remember the actual number, but this is close enough!

Comments

Thanks for the very interesting posts. What all of you are describing is the modern American economy, which is vastly different from the way things were done in the post WWII period. An economy, btw, that is quite different than Europe's. (England and Ireland are exceptions. Closer to ours than Europe's)

We have simply scads of small companies. Most Americans work in these small companies, not the major corps. Also, our business schools are teaching the next generation of CEO's how to properly treat workers and keep productivity high. And, as most of you pointed out, our workforce is mobile. Moving to a new location for a better job is just normal, not a fearsome experience.

With all of this, traditional unions are dying. In the private sector, as opposed to government, they are virtually dead now. According to Michael Barone, just 8% of the private workforce is unionized.

I do, however, believe that something will replace unions as we go along. It may already be happening with "networking" and the internet. Certainly skilled people, high tech or otherwise, know how to find information on a potential employer and avoid those who are just assholes.

In the trades, you have the independent contractors. And they are independent! No unions there. The ones I deal with are proud and competent, and busy. Try to get a plumber out to your house. Worse, find someone to take care of the yard and do the landscaping.

This is a great topic of discussion and could go on for sometime but enough from me. After all, I am well past the point where it will have much of an impact.

Re: Comments

i was going to summarize in my post today about what people talked about in this thread, since it got so long, but i think this pretty much does the job.

everything from the dynamics at work that keep union membership down to what things are replacing it, littered with observations on why these things are true. i think you nailed it.

the comment that most resonated with me is "properly treat workers and keep productivity high." i spend so much of my day making sure people are happy, as opposed to working on some mythical "right thing" precisely because i get better work out of motivated employees. our company from top to bottom behaves this way, and they spend the money it takes to prove it.

thanks!

Re: Comments

All us young kids are talking about things we don't really get, grumpygrandpa comes along and provides the final pieces...

This is my thought as well, unions had a place, they no longer do in most situations. I've been seeing this "networking" phenomenon more and more. I use linkedin.com, which is the only one I've found that doesn't degraded into a big mess quickly. I consistently get good contacts there, they didn't sell out my email address, I find old office buddies, etc.

At some point, I vowed to never again take a job at a place where I couldn't know something about the development culture. I always want something like a third party source. It's worked out pretty well so far.